Building the Security Community: Cyber is a team sport

Yeah. Excited to talk about it. So, guys, why don’t you introduce yourselves in a little bit more depth and maybe share your titles? Because I feel like those really sum up the kind of work that you do.

Okay, so I’m Jason Blanchard. I’m the content community director at Black Hills. And essentially what we did is we killed the marketing department. So traditionally, I would be the chief marketing officer of this company.

And we were like, no, but that’s not what we do. Like, we create content. We build community around that content. We create content. We build community around that content. And so for us to stay focused completely on the thing that we wanted to do, we decided to change everything. And so we called.

I’m the content community director. And then Deb is the.

I am Deb Wigley. Hi, I’m the director of kindness and generosity, which sounds made up and it totally is. We had like an existential dilemma on a plane recently. I was like, what do I actually do? What do I do? And you helped me get like, well, you give a lot of stuff away and you’re kind and you’re generous. And I was like, there it is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she changed it on LinkedIn and like, it just notifies all of your connections. So like, 4000 people were like, oh, congratulations. It was a fantastic day for me. Yeah, they’re like that. That actually makes a lot of sense. And then John called and he was like, hey, thanks.

So, yeah, thanks so much for joining us. Like, you know, we’ve been. We’ve been close with you guys and been affiliated with you in many ways. We’ve loved being able to, you know, be sponsors of Wild West Hackin’ Fest throughout the last several years. And then obviously love what you guys do through Black Hills and just. Just have been attracted to you from. From how you’ve helped build the cybersecurity community.

But, you know, like, one thing that, you know, that we were chatting about before is, like, you know, you know, I’ve only been in cyber my whole career, right? So that’s the only industry that I know. But, you know, like, I’m. We’re all pretty certain that this industry is fairly unique, right, in terms of how small it can be and, you know, and unique in terms of how, you know, how personable. We all try to get together and actually work through problems, even though we may be working for competitors and things like that. We all tend to have kind of the same mission. But I’d love to kind of get your guys perspective on, like, how you see the community and why you value killing marketing and actually building community. Why is that important? So, for me, when I first got into cybersecurity, because I came from comic books and filmmaking.

So, for me, comic books and filmmaking is all about creating content, building community. And when I got to cybersecurity, I saw the B sides movement or, like, the b sides conferences. And so I was like, very, like, what is this? Like, I want to know more about it. And the fact that, like, people got together and had a conference, and they only charged $20 to get there. And then, like, I was like, this is great. Like, this is phenomenal. So, like, say, I do come from a marketing background.

Like, for a bunch of marketing people to get together and, like, not charge each other anything, and then to get up and just kindly share their knowledge. Yeah, no, that’s not a thing.

It’s not like a vendor pitch, either. It’s not like a buy my services. It’s legit. Like, I learned this thing. I think it’s cool, and I think you’ll think it’s cool. And so, like, for me, just seeing the B sides was, like, I feel like this. It’s not the entire cybersecurity industry, but there is a part of the cybersecurity industry that is very focused on, how can I help you be the best at what you do? And if I can be a part of that, and I want to be a part of that.

That’s such a good point, Dan, that you said that. I mean, you’ve been in cybersecurity your entire career. I came from the automotive industry. So I have an outsider’s perspective on the industry I’m in now. And it’s not like that out there. It is. It’s all competitive.

There are some, like, small shops that try to be friends with each other and, like, recommend, but it’s not nearly the same. And I was thinking about this the other day. It’s because. Is it because it’s so important. Like, we realize it is, like, almost life and death and, like, the state of the world. And, like, we realize just how important it is to help others be secure, that we all kind of, like. And we realized, like, the outside forces are massive, trying to make it not safe and make us not safe.

So it really, like, binds us together. I don’t know. I think we’ve realized, like, how great the stakes are. And you’re absolutely right. The B sides are fantastic.

We went to one conference that was not infosec specific, and it was similar and, like, wanting to help each other, but it wasn’t the same as actual infosec conference. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, exactly. Because, like I said, my experience has only been in the community, but I think our roots are really from that, you know, from the beginning. I mean, like, if you look at DeFcon, that was, like, a total volunteer kind of thing. And that’s kind of where I would say that’s kind of really where this whole notion of, like, getting together and sharing, you know, information and, you know, how things kind of started.

And it’s only kind of, I think, grown from there. But you’re right. I think the mission is really what drives a lot. It drives a lot of us. You know, maybe not all of us, like you said. I mean, but I would say. I would say you’re almost, you almost are kind of an outsider if you’re not really, like, at least bought into some fashion of the community of, like, hey, yeah.

Whether I work for Ford or Chrysler, you know, like, I’m still securing an organization and have the same struggles. And we can share information, you know, across, like, hey, how do we protect against, you know, the next ransomware threat or something like that? Also just commiserating together, too. Right. Because, you know, it can be a challenge in our, in our daily lives. Right? Yeah. Well, the perspective, like, it comes from John, so John owns our company. He’s also a teacher.

So a person who has that teacher’s heart to begin with. Like, I have things I want to teach, and I want you to know them. But there’s also this in cybersecurity right now. It’s a never ending pie. Like, the pie just keeps getting bigger. And so I think it makes it easier for us to go, well, I’m not taking a piece of your pie. There’s enough pie for everybody.

There’s plenty of pieces. You don’t have to hoard your pie. I was going to say, you know, I come from primarily a background in higher education and in that industry, and it’s similar in the sense that, as you were saying with John, that there’s this curiosity and this sense of wanting to learn and educate. And I think that that is, in my observations, true of infosec folks is they’re just really curious people. They want to learn new things, they want to try new things, and they want to share those when they figure them out. And I think that that’s, that’s really cool. And I think work and how to break it.

And then they’re like, look what I did. This thing was so cool. Did you see that? Yeah. Yeah. They just have that curious excitement. I broke it. I broke it.

Can you help broke it? Can I put it back together? Maybe. But I think that’s the true hacker sentiment, which, and I think, you know, kind of coming to black Hills, right. And I would say you guys are kind of the gold standard in terms of, like, setting the example of how to do this well and building your brand around it. Truly. I mean, you know, from an outsider’s view, you’ve really built your brand. I don’t know that. I mean, I don’t, like you said you do.

You’re not marketing per se, but, but it is how you’ve built a brand and, but it’s all around. I love John’s, you know, motto around we suck at capitalism. You know, I don’t know if that came from one of you or not, but, like, we embraced it along that vein of, like, the things that you guys have done to really, I would say, lead the way in how you’ve built, helped build the community and share content, maybe share a little bit about, like, kind of what you, what you are doing and what you’ve done in the past. For those that may not be aware of, like, black Hills and, you know, wild west, I always encourage people, like, people who want to do networking, like, who want to introduce themselves or build their network and things like that. And they go to conference. I’m like, speak present, get up on stage and say, hey, here’s the thing I thought I found. I think it’s really cool because the people who come to your talk also have some curiosity about this.

The thing that you found. And so there’s this instant connection between you and the audience of like, hey, I think this is cool, and you all think this is cool. And so now we have this one thing in common. So let’s go ahead and talk to each other. And so it creates this, like, opportunity for you to introduce yourself to a lot of people one time. So when I showed up at Black Hills Black, they were already doing webcast, and so they were doing webcasts, and it was their way of introducing themselves. And so it’s just.

Just something that we kept going. And, you know, I don’t want to say thankfully for the pandemic, right? Like, yeah, we blossomed. Yeah. In 2019, we did 36 webcasts, and in 2020, we did 564. So, I mean, that was everything. That was everything. Training and anytime we were here, that’s more than one a day.

Yes, it was. Yes, it was. It was fine.

Was. But it was like 500. Yeah, we do count it from every time we turned this on and then turned this off. And so it’s 564. But that was the way that we wanted to introduce ourselves. We’re like, so same thing. Like, you get a chance to introduce yourselves to a lot of people who also find the same thing interesting that you find interesting.

And so you have a way of saying, hi, hello, it’s nice to meet you. This is who I am. And they’re like, oh, cool. So one last thing, and I’ll turn over to Deb. But what we saw during that time is that people wanted to talk to us. They were like, hey, this is cool. This is cool.

And we’re like, well, what if they talk to each other? Yeah. And so we got a class on discord right before the pandemic started. It was like, we knew it was coming. It was very odd. We didn’t know it was coming. We did not. We did not.

We put a good friend, and he taught us discord, and it was like, two weeks later and everything locked out. So, yeah, so with discord, we were like, hey, you all want to talk to each other, so why don’t you talk to each other? And so it just became an opportunity for, if you find us interesting, you probably find each other interesting. It was like giving them a third place or third space to go to piggyback on what you’re saying.

If people want to hire us, we really just break into their computers, right, and into their systems. So if they don’t trust us and they don’t, like, know who we are, they’re not going to let our testers do that. So the testers showing up doing webcast, it gets them to know their personality, see that they are kind and they are generous, wanting to share their knowledge back, and it helps them trust them as a tester, as a company to be like, yes, we want to hire you for a pen test. So we just kind of just run with that. I think trust has become a really big, a big word that we’ve been talking about a lot, a lot recently. Yeah. Oh, that’s great.

That’s great. And I think that translates also to the rest of the community as well. I mean, I think in general, I’ve grown up, so to speak, like attending Defcon, going to black hat, going to RSA, going to the b sides events, and each one has its kind of own distinct flavor, but you still find that pocket of like, hey, we’re here to collaborate. We’re here to help and learn from each other and, you know, like, build that trust. Right? Like, I think that, you know, this whole podcast that we’re doing, right is based on, it’s called Friends Friday. And it’s just people that we’ve gotten to know, you know, throughout, throughout our time together at these conferences and at these different events, which, you know, to me also seems unique. I don’t know that you build as many friendships and along the way now, obviously, people jump around a lot in cyber, so, like, they work together at one spot and then, you know, you’re friends forever even though you’ve worked at companies.

But, yeah, so, I mean, you know, what would be, what would be some of your advice, you know, to people kind of either trying to kind of get connected, build some of their brand from a trust perspective, you know, because, like, everybody wants to. I think. I think I’ve also experienced this, too, that imposter syndrome of like, yeah, I’d love to speak at a conference, but I don’t have anything to say. Right. Yeah, it took me, what, four years to be convinced to speak at a conference. So I definitely was on stage with him. So I had a buddy.

So I definitely get that imposter syndrome. And all the testers feel that when they come here and you’re really good at reminding them, they’re like, you’re here, you’re a black Hills tester now. Like, you have something to share. There’s no more imposter syndrome. Like, you’ve made it here, so you got to get rid of that. Yeah, it’s, we always encourage people to jump in our discord or any infosec discord and just start answering questions. If you see someone asking, there’s always someone that’s coming, someone behind you just a little bit.

Someone asking a question that you know the answer to. So that’s, that’s how we find our community leaders. That’s how we find the other, like, friends of ours that we want to give back to is the people who are jumping into community and answering questions. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes you don’t know what to talk about until you see someone’s question. Like, questions is the greatest way to figure out what to talk about.

If you’re in a discord server and you see someone ask a question about something that you have some kind of, you’re like, oh, that’s a ten minute talk, or that’s a 15 minutes talk. I could talk about that topic. And so just answering a question that you see on the Internet, on Reddit Discord or something, like, oh, if, if a person’s asking this, it means they don’t know. And if I have the answer to that, then let me be the answer to their question. And you can make the assumption that if they don’t know, there’s a lot of other people that don’t know either. So that’s a good place to get started of. Like, well, where do I find the ideas that I can start presenting on? And that’s a great idea.

Like, inside our Discord server. If we see someone answer someone else’s question, we take a look at their history. Just make sure they’re a kind and considerate person that, you know, TOday’s not their good Day.

Yeah, or their first day. And there really is, like, everyone on our Discord server is kind and generous. And so we take a look at their history and we go, you’re a contributor. And so we give them special access to a contributor role where they can meet all the other contributors. And so they have movie nights. They’re friends like they in Real Life. When we saw a bunch of them at B sidesharm and they met on the discord and they’re like, friends in real life.

That’s crazy. That’s funny. I think there’s something to be said on the flip side of that, too. I mean, as a, as a teacher, which I’ve done most of my career, not in this industry, but you always hear the saying, there’s, there’s no stupid questions. And so I think a good place for people to start that is asking the questions, too, not just answering them, but sometimes you have to be brave enough just to ask the question and make yourself a little bit vulnerable because as I always say, as a teacher, there are probably a lot of other people that have the same question and are just afraid to say it. And it seems like, you know, your discord and others are great places for people that are new in the industry to safely ask their questions and get those answers from others in a way that is not as intimidating as it might be within your organizational structure where you’re. Make sure you always know what you’re talking about.

But a place you can go and say, hey, I can’t figure this thing out, or I need a little bit of help here, back to my workplace. Yeah, that’s a really good point. We see that some people have lurked for years before they post for the first time. And so. Yeah, just post sounds so creepy.

Observed. Well, yeah, and I think it’s. I think it kind of highlights how generous the community typically is. Right. Like, they won’t, they won’t view what like, you know, seems to be a trivial question to them, but that’s because they’re an expert in the field. Right. And I think.

I think we also recognize, especially in the pen testing community is like the skill set and the talent to be a good pen tester is very rare. I mean, it’s a long time to develop and so being willing and able to give a little bit of your time to answer one of those questions for somebody that’s more junior or, you know, just where they’re genuinely seeking and not. And, you know, I used to have to draw a balance when I was, when I was a tester at a different company. Even within our company, you know, it’s like, is this person actually just asking to. Because they’re curious and they’re going to learn or they just ask me to do their job, there’s a balance. But. But I was always, I was always eager to help answer people where they were genuinely curious and wanted to learn and would soak it up.

That’s why also, I really like the offsec guys and the work that they’ve done. And then I also hated it going through their test because you had to explicitly map out everything you had already tried before. Their answer wasn’t try harder.

You guys produce so much, just educational and fun content. I think that’s what has just drawn me as a content creator myself to Black Hills. And I’ve had the privilege of getting to go to wildlife hack and fest twice now. And part of community one, it’s incredibly welcoming. Even to people that don’t know anything, which was neat the first time when it comes to infosec topics and cybersecurity, but incredibly welcoming. But you guys have also made it so much easier for people to learn and share through some of the content that you guys are creating. And can you talk a little bit about, for those that aren’t already using all of your great content about your comics, your graphic novels, games, like, so many ways that you are making education in the field accessible and so, so much fun.

Yeah, well, in the first, I mean, I feel like our flagship, if you will, is back doors and breaches. We always say it has exceeded all of our expectations. And some, I think, year two, we were like, it’s still a thing. Yeah, it’s still a thing. It still is out there. Yeah. So at the very core of what backdoors and breeches was, it was a replacement for t shirts, right? Yeah.

Cause you go to cons and you hand out t shirts, and you’re like, that’s cool. We’re handing out t shirts. But we were like, what if we could hand out something that was useful and, like, helpful and they could use. And so, yeah, speak a little bit because you were doing cubicles and compromises and then. Yeah, pivots and payloads, I think, was the first. Yeah. I came from another training organizations where we created a board game.

Essentially, that was a poster so you could cut out all the pieces and turn it into a board game that walked you through a pen test. So. And then there’s parts where the defenders did something, it would cause you to go back. So it was like, chutes and ladders mixed with candyland mixed with, you know, pen testing. And so John helped me with that. And so, you know, we put that together, and then. So when I came to black hills, we were like, what can we make? And he had already done a thing called cubicles and compromises, which was dungeons and dragons meets incident response.

And I was like, what is this? Tell me more about it. And so he explained it, and I was like, okay, so you have a dice. Okay, cool. And then what happens? And he explained it, and I was like, why hasn’t this caught on? And the reason why it hadn’t caught on is because people lacked imagination for coming up with scenarios. They just didn’t know how to get started. And so I was in a comic book store, and I saw that dungeons and dragons made cards for people who lacked imagination to get started. And I was like, cards? I called John from the comic store.

I was like, we’re making cards.

And he’s like, okay. And then a week later, he sends me a spreadsheet that’s just a brain dump. And I was like, okay, the core deck is John. Like, it is John’s brain. Yeah. All the expansion decks after that, we have, like, fine tuned and, like, gotten the wording down and verbiage down, and they’re much more, like, adulty, the cord.

And so we, like, we worked on it just kind of like a skunk works type thing going on at Black Hills for a while. And some people are like, what’s this thing that you’re working on? We asked them to, like, come in and give their advice, and then they told us baby was ugly. Yeah, that part was rough, but it would have been incorrect. Yeah. So we finally printed, and I’m, like, dying on the inside of, like, I don’t know, this is gonna be good. And we released it at Derbycon, and we got there the morning of Saturday. We told everyone, like, hey, we’re gonna give away on Saturday.

And we’d used, like, webcast talking about it. Yeah. And there was a line from one side of the hotel to the other. And I was like, eight in the morning, john, I think this is gonna be good. Hopefully it’s for us.

I don’t even know if we did a webcast on, like, how to play. We just talked about it. I think we use the words like, it’ll help you with tabletop exercises. Be less terrible. So then that happened, and then 2020 happened, and then, you know, everything shut down, and someone from the community had gotten a deck, and they’re like, hey, can I make a online version to play this? And we’re like, can you make an online version two weeks later? I don’t know. It wasn’t very long. It’s still the same play. backdoorsandbreaches.com. it says, you know, by Richard Fung, because Richard Fung created it, and so we’ve kept it with his name on it the entire time because he created a version that all of us could play online. We’re like, oh, my gosh, that’s perfect. So it’s not only like we created this for community, but community came back and said, hey, hey, can we help improve on this? And we’re like, sure. And then what Deb and I did over the next two years is we went on a tour, essentially like a virtual tour, where we just did free demos for anyone that wanted to play it, and we would just show them how to play it. So anyway, you asked about the. How to get the community to help.

So the. Just the basic concept is, is this better for them than it is for us? That’s the question we always ask. Is this better for them than it is for us? Is backdoors and breaches better for them than it is for us? Is bear versus bear better for them than it is for us? Is the comic book better for them than it is for us? Survival guides, all that. Yeah. So if you start with that, is this better for the people who are getting it than it is for us who are making it, then it’s going to be something that people receive well and they want to use. Yeah. And sometimes we go back and we’re like, it sounds.

It seems a little self serving. Like, it seems like it’s just like, black hills. Black hills. And so then we either scratch it or we tweak it. So that really is, like you said, it’s received well if they know that really we had their hearts and mind when we were creating it for them. Yeah. We did make one thing that at the end of it, I couldn’t sleep.

I was like, it’s just a. It’s a pamphlet for us. Sucks.

I know. Yeah. And after that, we, like, went so in the other direction. It’s gonna be so useful, and it’s gonna be so beneficial, and it’s gonna be written by the community.

So I felt so bad that we made something self serving that we just were like. And they probably wouldn’t even say that it was. I’m sure I would not say that it was as a marketer, it was a piece of marketing. I think that’s why it bothered us so much. Yeah, that’s great. The factors and breaches is kind of taken on a life. I mean, you use this in educational settings, like formal educational settings now.

Right. You want to talk a little bit about ways that you’ve been using these to sort of help and train up the. The next generation. I mean, I feel like that’s all I do. Like, if anyone reaches out to me and they’re like, hi, I’m an educator. I’m like, hi, I’m your best friend. Like, how many do you need? How can we help you? We’ll show up and do demos for you.

We’ve had a lot of stories of professors coming back and saying that they incorporate it into their classes now, which is just really awesome. Yeah, yeah. It’s always like, I want to say the word cute. How people are unsure of how kind we might be. Yeah, they’re like, what’s the catch? Yeah. Would two decks be too many? And you’re like, how many do you need? I need 20.

And I’m going to ask Deb to take off her thing that she’s messing with. It’s. It’s like my fidget’s been. Yeah, I’m just.

I got one on this hand, too. I know, it’s just loud.

Well, I mean, like. And I would say, like, we’re almost done, so don’t worry, Deb.

I love that, because, like, you know, to me, that’s. That’s a true servant’s heart. You guys, you know, really kind of embody, like, servant leadership from that mentality, and I think that served you guys well, obviously. Obviously. So even though it’s, you know, it’s not self serving, it has become that, but purely from a non agenda perspective. And that was kind of going to be my. Kind of my two sense of, like, helping, you know, helping build the community really comes from.

Don’t have an agenda. Right. You know, like, don’t. Don’t come into an environment, you know, hoping to get more out of it than you’re willing to contribute. That’s kind of way I’ve always tried to. Tried to, you know, build my career, and I would say just. I’ve been super fortunate from, like, when we started PlexTrac.

Like, I didn’t. I didn’t build that. My network of peers and friends, you know, with the intent of, like, hey, maybe they could be a customer at some point of a company I hadn’t started yet, you know, and. But, you know, I was super fortunate to have a lot of friends in the. In the industry that were willing to just help out and check. Check out my product, check it out. And.

And, you know, and I think that was just a, you know, testament to the community of, like, hey, if you come in it and you just try to build friends and contribute and help people along the way, you know, it can. You know, it can repay itself, you know? But if that’s the goal, it probably won’t. Right? And I think you guys have embodied that really well, not only for Black Hills, but for the community itself. So I think we’re about ready to wrap up. Yeah, you know, I was just gonna say maybe you could give us just. You’re like, what would be the things if someone said to you, hey, how can I. What can I contribute? I mean, you’ve mentioned asking, answering questions, sharing knowledge.

Ask a question, answer a question. But what are some of the ways that just an individual in this industry can give back. What would you say? Yeah, I’m going to steal debs. Okay, that’s fine. And then you can steal whatever you think mine is.

There’s a. I think there’s a lot of people, especially post pandemic, you hear about loneliness being an epidemic, right? People just so alone. And so what we’ve heard from people is that we’re their connection. When they’re working, like, they’ll turn us on, listen to pre show banter, and they just feel like they have someone around. And so when you hear that, you’re like, that’s awesome. But also, like, come here, like, I want to give you a hug. Right? So I think there’s a lot of people who feel unseen in our industry.

And so instead of waiting for them to come to you, go to them, like, find them. And not, like, force yourself upon them with friendship. But like, hey, I see you. I see that you have something to contribute. I see that you have something not even something to contribute. I see you as a person, and I see you as a person who potentially bring joy to my life. I’ll bring joy to your life.

And so how about we just do some life together? Yeah, I just was thinking about, the discord server has become like its little ecosystem of its own and like, this little city, I think. And it’s just like an individual. That’s something easily you can do. You can join any infosec discord server. I’m clearly biased towards the Black Hills one, but there are so many people in there that really just can’t wait to meet you, want to say hi. They want to know about you. They want to know your likes and your dislikes and just you as a human, not necessarily as a professional in the infosec industry, but they really, really will be like, oh, there you are.

Like, we knew. We knew you were kind of, you know, in this background lurking. But like, just, just get involved. Say hi. Even just that. Just be like, hi, I’m new here. And you’ll have like a swarm of people be like, welcome.

Like, here’s this channel, and this channel, and this channel, if you’re job hunting, is here at career chat. Like, they cannot wait to meet anyone who joins. So, yeah, awesome. Awesome. Well, guys, I’m putting up your, my little ticker here because I’m sure people, if they don’t already follow you, which they probably do, but if they don’t, they should find you guys, what are your hot projects right now that people should be paying attention to. I know you’ve got, oh, the graphic novel for sure, is what we’re excited about. Yeah.

So we’re working on a graphic novel. And when I say graphic novel, comic book series, it takes place about 30 to 40 years into the future. And so it’s the hackers of that time period trying to make their world a better place, dealing with the consequences of all this. Decisions now. Decisions now.

And so it’s helping us. Like, I spent months researching future technology. Future this, future that, and learning as much as I can about what societal changes are going to happen. There’s a thing where billionaires right now are trying to live long enough so they can live for forever. And I’m like, what? And so it’s helping us stay focused on the future. And the decisions that are being made now have consequences. Positive, negative, regardless, they have consequences.

And so if you can focus on the future by focusing on now. And so that’s the stories that we want to tell through this graphic novel series. And the community really showed up and said, I want to support this. And it’s like, it has been incredible to see the community, and we’re making it for them. There’s going to be cybersecurity challenges embedded into the story, into the art. So that way when you find a, you’re like, wait a second, that’s an IP address. What happens if I go to that IP address? You’re like a challenge, right? This comic world too, who have no idea about hacking or whatever they think we do over here.

So it is a way, I mean, the wording around it is like, what hackers and, or what sneakers and war games, kind of like in the eighties got people into hacking. This is another way to get people into the infosec community. So it’s fun. And I do want to plug for what Deb’s doing is she is starting to bring together cybersecurity educators and so do you want to talk? It’s like this huge project I haven’t really started on. I’m reaching out. They’ll reach out to all of the cyber clubs like in the country and just ask how we can help. What do they need? Factors and breaches.

They need infrastruct survival guides. I even ask them if they, we can provide snacks for them for their meetings, or we can show up and just talk. So that’s a massive project, which I thank you for that reminder.

Awesome, guys. Thank you. We can get links to these things into the comments so that people can find them easily. So we’ll make sure that that happens. Thank you guys so much. Seriously, it was just very humbling to be asked and just to be here and hang out with you guys. We’re super grateful for taking time out of your busy schedules to spend it with us and our followers and just important to just continue to spread the word.

So keep on doing the good work. And yeah, if you have any questions or comments for Dev and Jason, just leave them in the, in the comments section of the live session and enjoy the rest of your Friday. Everybody, we appreciate you stopping in for a little bit and thank you so much again, Jason and Deb for joining.